Burning them two at a time
February 2nd, 2010

Burning them two at a time

Greg Land is an easy target. Mark Millar gets a bit more complicated.

I read Kick-Ass #8 last week and I came away feeling like Mark Millar didn’t like me very much.

I know it’s a Thing© to say Millar is racist and bad. The Italian stereotype mob isn’t really just a Millar thing, so it doesn’t seem fair to get mad at just him for that. The worst example that immediately sprang to mind is still the first issue, where Kick-Ass just walks up and starts beating on a group of black kids for almost no reason.

I searched the internet, doing tough investigative journalism by typing in stuff like “mark millar racism” and “mark millar is bad and writes bad”. People have done the work for me, and it isn’t hard to find a ton of examples of Millar treating people of color terribly. The dude even managed to kill Black Goliath in two different realities, which is still somehow funny to me even in the very real context of racism.

I read some of my own issues of the stuff I remember liking – Ultimates, Authority, Red Son – to try and find other examples. I still enjoyed them, thanks in no small part to the art on each series, even though I kept finding little examples of minorities being beaten or abused. It’s like the arrow in the FedEx logo, you just can’t unsee it once somebody’s pointed it out. Unlike the arrow, though, I couldn’t figure out if the racism was there on purpose. That arrow is definitely racist. Look at it.

(A little tangent here, but Millar sure does work with some quality artists. Bryan Hitch, Frank Quitely, Romita Jr., J.G. Jones, Dave Johnson, et al. I can’t think of anyone else who consistently gets top level talent to draw their stuff.)

Anyway, I was really tempted to be all sensitive liberal white guy and bag Millar’s works but I saw a pattern in his books that confused me even more. Everybody in a Millar book is an asshole to some degree. Even Captain America and Superman become unlikeable. Cap has the dual traits of ‘asshole soldier’ and ‘cranky old man’. Superman is a dirty commie and Lex Luthor becomes a sympathetic bad guy with a point when compared to Hammer and Sickle Supes.

I re-read Kick-Ass. Dave beats up minorities in Kick-Ass, but Dave’s a shit head that I don’t particularly identify with anyway. I didn’t feel like Millar was consciously or even sub-consciously telling me minorities were bad people. It was more like, “hey, look at what this stupid kid with a need to feel special is going out to do”. The main character even says as much in the last issue. He’s an asshole.

So, long story short, this isn’t “How I learned to stop worrying and love Mark Millar” since I didn’t particularly enjoy Kick-Ass. And it isn’t a defense of Millar because the ratio of minorities to whites being beaten still seems bizarre.

It’s more like I’ve written all this to get to the point where I’ve got no idea what to think of Millar. Accusing somebody of racism is serious stuff, and it isn’t something I feel entirely equipped to do, either. I think the best kind of commentary I can offer on Millar’s stories is that they seem to be the stories of bad people who get into bad situations. You’re not supposed to like the main characters or the people they clash with, you’re just supposed to be excited by the sparks.

Somebody tell me what to think, please. Or you could just give up and go home since this might just be much ado about nothing.

^ 59 Comments...

  1. mordicai

    I think people need to step away from equating “racism” with “guys who hate HATE minorities & wear white hoods.” At some point, if all of your comics are full of minority people getting badly harmed…at some point you have to acknowledge that that is a problematic race issue. That there is some “us” & “them” going on there.

    That aside, my problem with Millar is that all of his comics vacillate between two poles: one pole being “Woooooah I am going to deconstruct the genre…with ultraviolence & lewd activities!” & the other pole being “I have some awesome Frank Miller fanfic ideas!”

    & friends, I don’t think Frank Miller is all that great.

    [Reply]

  2. Brian

    Let’s not forget how ridiculously high-concept most of his stuff is.

    (that goes for both Millar and Miller)

    Great comic, guys. Slightly confused by why Chris is wearing lipstick, but great comic nonetheless.

    [Reply]

  3. vanessa

    Brian, are you kidding? That’s my favorite part! Nice one guys, both of you did great parodies with your end.

    [Reply]

  4. martinimanjoe

    I mean as always I’m with ya…I read like two or three issues of “Kick Ass” and just gave up and decided my $3.99 can be better spent….Millar has some work i truly enjoy I.E. “Red Son” but all in all it just seems like the guy just enjoys ultra violence and making the characters more gruesome…another book you didn’t say anything about was “Old Man Logan”….that book is a pretty good Wolverine story but when you step back all it is, is a violent marvel fucked up version of “Kingdom Come”…..all in all I don’t think Millar is racist maybe its just that everyone he writes is a shitty white person…also LOL it maybe important to point out when Millar was asked why he didn’t use Luke Cage much in Civil War he said something to the effect of “I don’t know anything about Luke Cage so I just had him hanging around not doing much.”…….mmmmmmm

    [Reply]

  5. Brandon Mendelson

    I don’t think Millar is a racist. A lot of the heat on him online tends to focus and blow out of proportion what they, the readers, perceive. Not quite what the author might have perceived when writing the story. And remember, the artist has just as much, if not more say than the writer does when it comes to the story’s finished panels. They can’t all be racists.

    I remember Millar saying something around the time Civil War was coming out where he pointed out people bring their own meanings and interpretation to the story, he just writes it. I can relate to that, so I’ve always given him and other comic writers, except where they absolutely intend to push their point of view on me, a pass.

    [Reply]

  6. Markus Seaberry

    I just don’t know. Maybe I haven’t read enough Millar. I was mad about Goliath being killed. I’ve been waiting for the Kick-Ass trade, now I’m not so sure.

    [Reply]

  7. Larry Koopa

    Is this the same Mark Millar who writes the EXTREMELY RELIGOUS “Fist of the Morningstar?”

    Also, this thread has become too mature. I intend to fix that. Boobies.

    [Reply]

  8. Pj Perez

    I honestly don’t put that much thought into Millar’s comics. Or any superhero comics. It’s like all the people who wrote into Jonathan Hickman after he wrote Valeria Richards calling Franklin a “retard” in an issue of FF. WHO ARE YOU PEOPLE?

    But really, Kick Ass? It’s a fun, dumb comic about dumb kids doing dumb shit. Millar’s Scottish anyway, right? What do those people know outside of banging sheep? AMIRIGHT PEOPLE? RIGHT? People? hello? anyone? help.

    [Reply]

  9. Zach

    Millar’s said it himself, he write the absolute worst shit he can think up so he can get it out of his head and on with his life. Same with Ennis.

    Basically, they write assholes, rapists, racists and whatever other epithets you want to apply to their characters so they don’t become those people. Think of it like you’re paying for their therapy.

    [Reply]

  10. Jeff

    I want to say there’s nothing to this, and that Millar is just dumb, not malicious.

    But we’re talking about the guy who had the Black Panther secretly be a blond-haired, blue-eyed white guy under his costume (which was, literally, beaten off of him by a white guy) and, um, also Captain America. So, I mean, it’s there if you want to look for it.

    [Reply]

  11. Jake

    I can’t think of anyone else who consistently gets top level talent to draw their stuff.

    Unfortunately, the answer is Jeph Loeb. Millar may write some offensive stuff, but at least it’s entertaining around 50% of the time. Loeb gets Arthur Adams, Jim Lee, David Finch, Ed McGuinness, Frank Cho, Rob Liefeld, Tim Sale, all those guys from Fallen Son, and convinced Joe Mad to put down his video games after however many years, and nothing has been worth reading in more than a decade.

    [Reply]

  12. chrishaley

    Joe – “Old Man Logan” is a fucked up version of “Unforgiven”.

    [Reply]

  13. martinimanjoe

    holy crap chris ur right!

    [Reply]

  14. Andrew

    “But we’re talking about the guy who had the Black Panther secretly be a blond-haired, blue-eyed white guy under his costume (which was, literally, beaten off of him by a white guy) and, um, also Captain America. So, I mean, it’s there if you want to look for it.”

    . . . that was Jeph Loeb, so it’s there if you want to deliberately prevaricate and entirely ignore context to do it, I guess.

    But if we want to talk about actual racism in comics, how about we talk about Reginald Hudlin’s Black Panther?

    [Reply]

  15. David

    “…they seem to be the stories of bad people who get into bad situations. You’re not supposed to like the main characters or the people they clash with, you’re just supposed to be excited by the sparks…”

    Pretty much, yeah. Which is why I don’t like his stuff, and find him to have done nothing but harm to the mainstream Marvel Universe whenever he writes in it.

    [Reply]

  16. Jeff

    Andrew – mea maxima culpa. This is why I shouldn’t comment while multitasking.

    [Reply]

  17. Joey

    You know why I hate Mark Millar? He spelled Miller with an “a”. Fucking douche.

    [Reply]

  18. tommy

    I love Millar’s work, and don’t see the Racist connection…
    Of course I’m just a dumb white guy

    Love his work, he’s a great writer so it’s no wonder he works with great artist.

    [Reply]

  19. GN&7

    I don’t know about Millar (I liked Ultimates, but that’s the only one I’ll really stick up for) but the Land jab here is so true it almost steps over into heartbreaking territory.

    Still, Chris’ magazine model face makes it all better. Every time.

    [Reply]

  20. Dan

    It is that damn arrow all over again. I now can’t stop thinking of Mark Millar penned books that left me feeling uncomfortable.

    However, I will stick up for his recent run on Fantastic Four and the 1985 mini-series.

    [Reply]

  21. chrishaley

    Dan – I’ve been meaning to read “1985″. You’d recommend it?

    [Reply]

  22. Brad

    Second panel sold it for me. Why does every character drawn by Greg Land have their mouths open all the time? Similar to the FedEx arrow, it’s normal at first, but once you notice the trend, it’s creepy…

    [Reply]

  23. Pat!

    well, speaking as a black comic geek, i don’t think millar is racist

    in fact, i’m a fan of his. he’s like the michael bay of comics (and i don’t mean that in a bad way)

    i mean, when i go into a michael bay movie, i’m not expecting anything oscar worthy. i’m expecting a couple of BAD BOYS to, i don’t know, invade an island like ROCK and then blow a lot of shit up with a couple of GIANT ASS TRANSFORMING ROBOTS with a shit ton of slo-mo and dramatic camera angles thrown in.

    likewise, when i read a mark millar comic, i’m not expecting deep alan moore level plots. i’m expecting shit to blow up during a shit-ton of over the top ULTIMATE action with humor and KICK-ASS art thrown in.

    also, i think we all need to recognize the fact that, when a non-minority writer (aka hetro white male) has bad shit happen to minority characters (aka non-white males and/or females and/or gay), it doesn’t mean they’re a racist/sexist/homophobe.

    yes, in CIVIL WAR, Cyborg-Thor (a white character) killed Black Goliath (a black character). but then, an issue or two later, the Punisher (a white character) kills two super-villains (both white) to save spider-man’s life and then, an issue or so later, he guns down two more super-villains (both white) in cold blood, just because, well, because he’s a fucking psycho. so, does mark millar hate black super-heroes? does he hate white super-villains?

    sometimes bad shit happens to good people in comics, be they white/black/male/female/gay/hetro whatever. in fact, if bad shit *didn’t* happen to good people in comics, why the hell would we need super-heroes for?

    (oh, and while, yes, his Superman in RED SON may come off as an asshole, his Superman in SUPERMAN ADVENTURES is some of the best Superman i’ve read and i’m a *huge* Superman fanboy. so, i think it depends on the context, y’know)

    [Reply]

  24. Jon Callan

    Hey, long time reader first time… commenter. Love you guys, normally…

    But personally, I think Millar is one of the best writers in comics. I think you’re right to hit on the: no one is likable in a Millar book. Though I think there’s a second, weirder truth to that, which is: everyone is likeable in a Millar book despite being totally unlikeable. I have a weird affection for Cap and his 1950s racism and jazz. Or Logan and his inability to see the irony in killing 500,000 people because The Hand killed the son of a guy he once knew. I genuinely believe Cap in that book is a good person with a real code of ethics. I also believe he’s a guy who would flip the fuck out if his daughter brought home a black guy. And I like the fact that both can be true.

    Millar’s stories are unflinching punches to the gut, primarily because he doesn’t give a shit about subtext or perception. He’s Stan Lee on crack, a ring side showman through and through. You will never get more reading a Millar book a second time. You’ll just get to relive the same bombastic moments.

    [Reply]

  25. Jon Callan

    Hey, long time reader first time… commenter. Love you guys, normally…

    But personally, I think Millar is one of the best writers in comics. I think you’re right to hit on the fact that no one is likable in a Millar book. Though I think there’s a second, weirder truth to that, which is: everyone is likeable in a Millar book despite being totally unlikeable. I have a weird affection for Cap and his 1950s racism and jazz. Or Logan and his inability to see the irony in killing 500,000 people because The Hand killed the son of a guy he once knew. I genuinely believe Cap in that book is a good person with a real code of ethics. I also believe he’s a guy who would flip the fuck out if his daughter brought home a black guy. And I like the fact that both can be true.

    Millar’s stories are unflinching punches to the gut, primarily because he doesn’t give a shit about subtext or perception. He’s Stan Lee on crack, a ring side showman through and through. You will never get more reading a Millar book a second time. You’ll just get to relive the same bombastic moments.

    [Reply]

  26. Jon Callan

    Annnd, I’ve double posted on my first time out.

    [Reply]

  27. Jon Callan

    “But we’re talking about the guy who had the Black Panther secretly be a blond-haired, blue-eyed white guy under his costume (which was, literally, beaten off of him by a white guy) and, um, also Captain America.”

    Just wanted to point out – this was Ultimates 3. Written by Jeph Loeb. Not Millar. Which is maybe indicative of the pitfalls in close reading a text when you’ve already decided what you’re looking for.

    [Reply]

  28. The Real Brian

    There are several reasons why I am no fan of Mark Millar, some of which were mentioned in the above posts. But for me, my dislike boils down to 2 things. One, he is part of the “crappy wave” of the British invasion writers. There is a large amount of English/Scottish writers who genuinely cannot write good American comics because they have no naural affinity for the American experience. The good ones, like Moore or Morrison, may not have grown up in the colonies, but they write realistic, universally accessible comics (well not always, but they are both capable of it). Either of those writers could write a novel told from the first-person perspective of a 12-year old girl, and I’m sure it would be great. Miller could not. Nor could Jamie Delano. And certainly not Paul Jenkins.

    My second point of contention has to do with Miller’s unmitigated hubris involving the work of comic creators who came before. When taking over Fantastic Four, he claimed that FF had not been a best selling title since Lee & Kirby left the book. There were only a few guys that kept or returned FF to the best selling ranks that he failed to mention. Namely, John Byrne, George Perez, Mark Waid, Walt Simonson, etc, etc. To make such a blanket statement without knowing the facts just shows that he doesn’t know what the fuck he’s talking about.

    [Reply]

  29. Evil Clone Brian

    Aha! Finally, something evil clones and their non-test-tube counterparts can agree on – a mutual dislike for Jamie Delano!

    [Reply]

  30. Mathematicscore

    Just wanted to add the point; you can have racism and not be a racist. Everyone gets caught up in burning crosses and an overt agenda, but often as not, it is the most banal thing in the world…literally the “banality of evil.”
    Regardless, on the most basic level, Millar has some serious weaknesses. I think it’s mainly his endings. Authority, Civil War, Old Man Logan, the Fantastic Four run, all were really awesome, (in my opinion) until the ending. In all those cases I was left with that “ugh” feeling. Red Son and maybe the Ultimates would be exceptions to that rule, but even then Red Son is pretty downer for most of the ancillary characters. He’s nowhere near as shitty as Loeb, but then again, Loeb really works at it.

    [Reply]

  31. Nathan

    Way I see it, we got two millars. the one who is all id and goes crazy with the sodomy and explosions, and the one who reigns it in.

    also from what I hear Morrison says most of their collaborations were mainly Millar, and he wrote children’s comics about Superman (which I remember liking, but I can’t honestly remember).

    anyway what ireally wanted to say is that Chris: watching you try to draw like Landi s one of the most fucking hilarious things I’ve seen.

    Jolly good show

    [Reply]

  32. chrishaley

    I think Curt is hiding, so I’ll say it is really gratifying for us to see such a spirited debate/discussion taking place here. Even though our goal on Tuesdays and Fridays is just to make you laugh, we really appreciate you guys and gals taking the time to talk about these kinds of things with us in an open and intelligent manner.

    I’d also like to point out to the people who are visiting from the MillarWorld forums (though I’m guessing most won’t read this any closer than it seems they read the original post) and anyone else that’s reading: WE ARE NOT SAYING MARK MILLAR IS A RACIST.

    We are also not just trying to start some kind of controversy or make anyone mad.

    I don’t want to speak for Curt too much here, but I like Mark Millar. I really enjoyed The Ultimates. I really enjoyed that Spider-Man Marvel Knights book he did. I really enjoyed The Authority. I enjoyed the first three or four issues of Old Man Logan. I liked Chosen.

    But the Mark Millar I really, really liked was the one who wrote The Flash with Grant Morrison and Superman Adventures.
    That Mark Millar showed me he was a guy who understood all the things that are great about Superman and that he knew how to turn that love of Superman into great stories anyone could enjoy.

    I would gladly take that Mark Millar on any of my favorite books any day of the week.

    The problem I personally have with the current Mark Millar is that everything he does now seems to be built entirely on big reveals and epic deaths and shocking twists and one badass after another trying to out posture and out badass the other.
    There is definitely some fun to be had in Wanted and Kick-Ass, and I understand why some people liked them, but (and this is just me) I’m just not that into seeing a little girl kill people and a teenage boy have his testicles electrocuted with jumper cables. I am not judging anyone else for liking those books, and I’m not saying you are wrong or bad if you liked those books.
    I’m also not saying that Mark Millar tortures teenage boys because he wrote that scene.
    I’m just saying those books (especially the endings) offer up a really cynical take on the world that is (at least at this point in my life) not what I’m interested in seeing.

    I think this is getting away from me a little bit, so I’m going to wrap it up, but if I can make one thing clear, it is this: Please read what Curt said a little more clearly before you make the statement or the assumption that we are calling anyone racist or insulting Mark Millar’s work.

    We’re just trying to make some cartoons that people like us (which is to say, our fellow comic readers) can enjoy, and whether you agree with us or not, our intention is never to be jerks or hurt anyone’s feelings.

    Except Greg Land.
    You should be ashamed of yourself, Greg Land.

    [Reply]

  33. Dan

    You should give 1985 a read, especially if you want a Mark Millar book without a cynical ending.

    [Reply]

  34. Nathan

    testing new avatar

    [Reply]

  35. vanessa

    …”our intention is never to be jerks or hurt anyone’s feelings.

    Except Greg Land.
    You should be ashamed of yourself, Greg Land.”

    HAHAHAHAHAHA!

    [Reply]

  36. vanessa

    That middle panel cracks me. the. fuck. up.

    [Reply]

  37. Evil Clone Brian

    Chris, thanks for the Greg Land link.

    I mean, you with lipstick and the O-face is still weird, but now I’m in on the joke. Huzzah!

    [Reply]

  38. Nathan

    yeah I think i’m going to use this forever

    also well said Chris.

    though I’m personally looking forward to Nemesis if not because the premise interests me, but that I have an almost homoerotic love for Steve McNiven

    [Reply]

  39. Curt

    I basically said this over at the Millar World thread:

    I’m not calling Millar a racist. I’m reacting to others who did, and I determined that it’s pointless to try and determine somebody’s personal politics by reading their comics.

    But I do want to say thanks to everybody who’s able to discuss this like we’re real people talking about difficult subjects.

    Greg Land is pretty shit though, how can you argue with that.

    [Reply]

  40. Nathan

    The problem with that is that very few people read the post below the strip before posting.

    [Reply]

  41. Bugs

    How does Land continue to get work? No, seriously, I want an answer. I’ve seen so many Land tracer gifs on /co, that I feel like I could pick out his ‘references’ blindfolded.

    We need to produce some sort of spot the Land tracing board game.

    [Reply]

  42. Nathan

    Also Morrison definitely tops Millar in the getting great artists to work with him department, in just the past decade he’s worked with

    Frank Quitely, Frazer Irving, Cameron Stewart, Tony Daniel (shut the hell up, i like his art), Doug Mahnke, JG Jones, Jae Lee, Ed McGuiness (see Tony Daniel), JH Williams III, Pasqual Ferry, Jim Lee, Gene Ha, Carlos Pacheco, Sean Murphy, Andy Kubert and Ryan Sook.

    and that’s just the ones I can think of.

    [Reply]

  43. aprilsteeleisreal

    Can we just get really real here for a second?
    Brian has GOT to stop using that awful mugshot photo of Curt as his icon.

    [Reply]

  44. Cretin

    Have curt or chris seen THIS yet?

    http://forums.millarworld.tv/index.php?showtopic=91629&st=0

    Probably!

    [Reply]

  45. Curt

    Yeah, Cretin, I made a few replies in that thread trying to clarify what we were talking about.

    They’ve locked the thread now, so if anybody from MillarWorld wants to keep talking about it here, feel free, this is a pretty relaxed place.

    [Reply]

  46. hayduke666

    dang. there IS an arrow in there. i’ve never noticed it before. seriously.

    has that always been there?

    [Reply]

  47. Kadin

    I’d like to second the first mordicai’s comment up the top there. I’d also like to add that what a writer “intends” to do doesn’t always matter as much as what they actually write. And if somebody writes a lot of minorities getting beaten up or killed or whatever, that’s something they should probably think about and try to work on, even if they’re not Klan members, and even if they think to themselves, “But I know I’m not a racist!” Regardless of anyone’s conscious thought processes, it’s still possible for them to do or say something racist (adjective), and that doesn’t necessarily make them “a” racist (noun).

    [Reply]

  48. chrishaley

    Very well said, Kadin.

    [Reply]

  49. Larry Koopa

    “…it’s pointless to try and determine somebody’s personal politics by reading their comics.”
    Not with Ditko. His politics come through pretty strong. It’s everything else about him that’s a Mystery.

    [Reply]

  50. The Real Brian

    In the interest of being fair to Greg Land as well, here’s a quick story about him. Years ago, literally years, there was a local artist who kept buying this Sojourn comic when I pulled subs for C&C. So one day I asked him, “Hey is this comic any good?, what do u like about it?, etc, etc”. He responded with “Greg Land is far and away my favorite tracer”. ‘Nuff said.

    [Reply]

  51. Matt Drane

    I want to second (third?) that Millar’s Superman Adventures stuff is fantastic. “How Much Can One Man Hate?” from that run is still one my all-time favorite Lex Luthor stories and I think totally nails the character. The digests are like $7 a piece and I don’t particularly remember any minorities getting hurt/killed.

    Red Son is also one of the best Superman stories around, even if its all elseworldsy.

    [Reply]

  52. David Arroyo

    I feel so late to the party but ill throw in my two cents because I think about this allot. As a Latino, it gets to a point where you tend to ignore the shit, up until it begins to stink so much you cant breath. I remember exactly the scene in the first issue of kick ass you mentioned. Yes it sucks ass, yes its racist but at this point I honestly don’t believe Marvel or DC really give two flying fucks about what minorities think about. Whats funny is that Hollywood does care because they want to make money, this is why you get John Stewart in the justice league cartoon rather than green lantern or Jaime the Latino blue beetle in the brave and the bold cartoon. The comic book industry does not like to change, and no matter how much i bitch and throw a fit every time I hear a stereotypical line like “madre de dios” uttered by a Latino character written by a here’s a shock white writer. At conventions editors swear up and down that their not racist and don’t want to gentrify the dc or marvel universe because its affirmative action at its worse. So i just read the comics i like and try to ignore it, and move on when i have to deal with it. Maybe in 20 years we may see a change in comics but for now, its just a one day at a time struggle

    [Reply]

  53. Mason

    I looked at a couple of his books in a bookstore once and I got the feeling that he thinks you should kill yourself if you aren’t a billionaire with superpowers, in real life.

    [Reply]

  54. Frodo Baggins

    The only thing of his I’ve read was Red Son, and it was pretty good.

    I saw the movie of Kick Ass and thought it was mostly bad, but I don’t know how much he’s to blame for that.

    [Reply]

  55. Lightning

    I don’t think Millar is actually a racist, I just think he’s a piece of shit who uses Racism because it’s “edgy.” Just like he uses rape, excessive cursing and graphic violence.

    [Reply]

    chrishaley Reply:

    You’re probably right. I can’t decide if that’s better or worse though.

    [Reply]

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    [...]Burning them two at a time | Let's Be Friends Again[...]…

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